"We will never save civilisation as long as civilisation is our main object. We must learn to want something else even more."
—C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
Matt wrote: "My point is that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the proverbial bath water."
[Insert your favorite "Did these people get baptized or just take a bath?" joke here.]
Matt,
I completely agree with Dave's comments, but I would go a step further. The kind of dramatic production employed here is simply a staged manipulation of emotions intended to move masses to manufacture conversions. My opinion is that this man-centered technique minimizes the majesty of God.
[sarcasm]Maybe the SBC's first option was to give everyone a copy of Let the Nations Be Glad, but at the last moment they decided not to because they didn't want to encourage people to follow Piper.[/sarcasm]
They say that the only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Think for a second about the kind of objectives and motivation employed by Neighborhood Bible Time, Awana, children's church, and youth ministries in the average gospel-preaching church. The 3-ring circus that was last Wednesday night in Nashville is nothing more than a higher-priced version of those programs targeted to pastors.
Should it be any surprise that these techniques are now being used to motivate adults to evangelism? I don't know if Frank Hamrick said this first, but I heard it first from him: "What it takes to attract them [to your youth ministry] is what it will take to keep them." Last week in Nashville we saw the consistent application of the widely-accepted student ministries methods applied to adult ministries. Perhaps that is why there aren't very many people in their 20s and 30s in many fundamental and SBC churches. The crowd that was weaned on the Broadway productions doesn't get what they want after they graduate from college so they go looking for it elsewhere.
I have no doubt that God will glorify His name through some conversions that take place because some people were motivated last week to witness. His ability to magnify His name despite these cheap tricks causes me to stand in awe of Him. But I don't see how people show respect for His name through these methods.
Side note: Some people who were at the convention were most disturbed by the shallow definition of salvation—simply praying a prayer, inviting Jesus into your life, etc. It shouldn't be surprising, perhaps, that people who seem to have a low view of divine sovereignty and a high view of human ability also have a low view of conversion and a high view of the effectiveness of contrived strategies.
"Think for a second about the kind of objectives and motivation employed by Neighborhood Bible Time, Awana, children's church, and youth ministries in the average gospel-preaching church. The 3-ring circus that was last Wednesday night in Nashville is nothing more than a higher-priced version of those programs targeted to pastors."
This situation reminds me of a situation I heard about in a different church when I was in H.S. At a women's conference they had women parading into the auditorium with "Miss America" type banners across their bodies. Instead of "Miss Texas" or "Miss Wisconsin", however, they had "100 souls" "250 souls" etc. representing the number of people they had lead to Christ....really sad. BUT I won't go so far to say they are doing this in this situation...however, they DO need to be careful...Solo De Gloria
As a Southern Baptist pastor, I guess that I should have some sort of opinion on this. I do, and they are many, but I will restrain myself.
The first thing that I thought of is that this endeavor is nothing new. I think that there was a similar campaign in 1954. The slogan was "a million more in 54."
The second thing is that my initial reaction was to think this: I wish Southern Baptists would lose a million members next year, too. After all, our church rolls are bloated beyond belief. We boast 16.4 million members, yet I would bet that we don't have a fifth that number in regular attendance. Much less that many being regenerate.
Maybe Southern Baptists should have this goal next year: This year, we're gonna return to the Biblical principle of church discipline! We're gonna hold people accountable for sins such as divorce, infidelity, stealing, gossip, and lying! This year, we're gonna see if we can't run the wolves out of the fold! Let's try to cut out 2 million people who are producing zero fruit! (Insert fireworks and cheering.)
I've heard some from the Founder's Movement say similar things. I shouldn't name names since this is semi-vague memory, but aren't some men openly criticizing the dishonesty of those numbers?
Do you sense that the trend towards church discipline is growing stronger in the SBC? I know it's taught quite aggressively and forcefully at SEBTS, and I suspect that at least Mohler and Patterson at SBTS and SWBTS are pushing it pretty hard, too.
Honestly, I do not know. I did, however, just graduate from SEBTS, and I know that this is something that people are talking about. Now, whether anyone is able to implement it successfully (that is, without quickly being shown the door) is another matter altogether.
I know that my church has 400+ on the role, 274 "resident membership, and about 135-150 on Sunday mornings. If the numbers of "total" SBCers reflect close to this trend, then the numbers are seriously inflated. (By the way, this has been the norm in almost every Church I've been in that's SBC.)
Here's what really makes me uneasy and often downright depressed. We have these bloated Church rolls because Church membership means next to nothing. The average Southern Baptist chuch accepts members "with a hearty amen" at the end of a service when they walk the aisle. The guy could be an axe murderer for all they know.
As for evangelism, it is very shallow at best. Raise your hand, say a prayer, congratulations you're going to heaven.
And theology...oh man it's bad out there. I have tremendous sympathy for the Founder's Movement. It's not that the average Southern Baptist has necessarily rejected the Doctrines of Grace, they don't even know what they are! Reasoned rejection I could handle, quite honestly. It's the blank stare that drives me bonkers. There is simply a theological blank in the minds of most Southern Baptists.
Truly, I am not trying to be mean. It's simply the truth. I am pastoring a church now, and I have worked in several SBC Churches in the past eight years. This has been the case everywhere I've been.
We want to add a million more people? How about we try to get 1/4 of our non-attending members to show up! That would probably equal 2 million right there. It just makes me sad.
I know that we should be sharing the gospel. (And many are!) But it seems to me that the average Southern Baptist is dying for lack of theology, which equates with a lack of knowledge about the greatness of God. That's robbery, man.
Here's my last bit on this rambling comment. Hebrews 6 tells us that we need to move on past the "elementary" things. Specifically laying the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God, baptismal instructions, laying of of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. Those elementary things...well, our people do not know them. And we steal from them precious comforts and joys and motivations by not teaching them.
I simply wish our leaders would exhort us to be steadfast in teaching the people the Word of God and let the Father worry about the numbers.
Great stuff, Sojourner. You'll enjoy this interview, even if there is a Presbyterian on it. The other two guys are SBC. ;-) Ascol makes many of the same points you do.
10 comments:
maybe they've been reading old Hyles books???
Or a NeoFundamentalist? We can retch together on this one...
Matt wrote: "My point is that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the proverbial bath water."
[Insert your favorite "Did these people get baptized or just take a bath?" joke here.]
Matt,
I completely agree with Dave's comments, but I would go a step further. The kind of dramatic production employed here is simply a staged manipulation of emotions intended to move masses to manufacture conversions. My opinion is that this man-centered technique minimizes the majesty of God.
[sarcasm]Maybe the SBC's first option was to give everyone a copy of Let the Nations Be Glad, but at the last moment they decided not to because they didn't want to encourage people to follow Piper.[/sarcasm]
They say that the only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Think for a second about the kind of objectives and motivation employed by Neighborhood Bible Time, Awana, children's church, and youth ministries in the average gospel-preaching church. The 3-ring circus that was last Wednesday night in Nashville is nothing more than a higher-priced version of those programs targeted to pastors.
Should it be any surprise that these techniques are now being used to motivate adults to evangelism? I don't know if Frank Hamrick said this first, but I heard it first from him: "What it takes to attract them [to your youth ministry] is what it will take to keep them." Last week in Nashville we saw the consistent application of the widely-accepted student ministries methods applied to adult ministries. Perhaps that is why there aren't very many people in their 20s and 30s in many fundamental and SBC churches. The crowd that was weaned on the Broadway productions doesn't get what they want after they graduate from college so they go looking for it elsewhere.
I have no doubt that God will glorify His name through some conversions that take place because some people were motivated last week to witness. His ability to magnify His name despite these cheap tricks causes me to stand in awe of Him. But I don't see how people show respect for His name through these methods.
Side note: Some people who were at the convention were most disturbed by the shallow definition of salvation—simply praying a prayer, inviting Jesus into your life, etc. It shouldn't be surprising, perhaps, that people who seem to have a low view of divine sovereignty and a high view of human ability also have a low view of conversion and a high view of the effectiveness of contrived strategies.
"Think for a second about the kind of objectives and motivation employed by Neighborhood Bible Time, Awana, children's church, and youth ministries in the average gospel-preaching church. The 3-ring circus that was last Wednesday night in Nashville is nothing more than a higher-priced version of those programs targeted to pastors."
Well put.
This situation reminds me of a situation I heard about in a different church when I was in H.S. At a women's conference they had women parading into the auditorium with "Miss America" type banners across their bodies. Instead of "Miss Texas" or "Miss Wisconsin", however, they had "100 souls" "250 souls" etc. representing the number of people they had lead to Christ....really sad. BUT I won't go so far to say they are doing this in this situation...however, they DO need to be careful...Solo De Gloria
As a Southern Baptist pastor, I guess that I should have some sort of opinion on this. I do, and they are many, but I will restrain myself.
The first thing that I thought of is that this endeavor is nothing new. I think that there was a similar campaign in 1954. The slogan was "a million more in 54."
The second thing is that my initial reaction was to think this: I wish Southern Baptists would lose a million members next year, too. After all, our church rolls are bloated beyond belief. We boast 16.4 million members, yet I would bet that we don't have a fifth that number in regular attendance. Much less that many being regenerate.
Maybe Southern Baptists should have this goal next year: This year, we're gonna return to the Biblical principle of church discipline! We're gonna hold people accountable for sins such as divorce, infidelity, stealing, gossip, and lying! This year, we're gonna see if we can't run the wolves out of the fold! Let's try to cut out 2 million people who are producing zero fruit! (Insert fireworks and cheering.)
Anyway, just a thought.
Sojourner,
I've heard some from the Founder's Movement say similar things. I shouldn't name names since this is semi-vague memory, but aren't some men openly criticizing the dishonesty of those numbers?
Do you sense that the trend towards church discipline is growing stronger in the SBC? I know it's taught quite aggressively and forcefully at SEBTS, and I suspect that at least Mohler and Patterson at SBTS and SWBTS are pushing it pretty hard, too.
Honestly, I do not know. I did, however, just graduate from SEBTS, and I know that this is something that people are talking about. Now, whether anyone is able to implement it successfully (that is, without quickly being shown the door) is another matter altogether.
I know that my church has 400+ on the role, 274 "resident membership, and about 135-150 on Sunday mornings. If the numbers of "total" SBCers reflect close to this trend, then the numbers are seriously inflated. (By the way, this has been the norm in almost every Church I've been in that's SBC.)
Here's what really makes me uneasy and often downright depressed. We have these bloated Church rolls because Church membership means next to nothing. The average Southern Baptist chuch accepts members "with a hearty amen" at the end of a service when they walk the aisle. The guy could be an axe murderer for all they know.
As for evangelism, it is very shallow at best. Raise your hand, say a prayer, congratulations you're going to heaven.
And theology...oh man it's bad out there. I have tremendous sympathy for the Founder's Movement. It's not that the average Southern Baptist has necessarily rejected the Doctrines of Grace, they don't even know what they are! Reasoned rejection I could handle, quite honestly. It's the blank stare that drives me bonkers. There is simply a theological blank in the minds of most Southern Baptists.
Truly, I am not trying to be mean. It's simply the truth. I am pastoring a church now, and I have worked in several SBC Churches in the past eight years. This has been the case everywhere I've been.
We want to add a million more people? How about we try to get 1/4 of our non-attending members to show up! That would probably equal 2 million right there. It just makes me sad.
I know that we should be sharing the gospel. (And many are!) But it seems to me that the average Southern Baptist is dying for lack of theology, which equates with a lack of knowledge about the greatness of God. That's robbery, man.
Here's my last bit on this rambling comment. Hebrews 6 tells us that we need to move on past the "elementary" things. Specifically laying the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God, baptismal instructions, laying of of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. Those elementary things...well, our people do not know them. And we steal from them precious comforts and joys and motivations by not teaching them.
I simply wish our leaders would exhort us to be steadfast in teaching the people the Word of God and let the Father worry about the numbers.
By the way, it is past my bedtime. Please forgive the rambling and the typos. I'm so embarrassed.:)
Great stuff, Sojourner. You'll enjoy this interview, even if there is a Presbyterian on it. The other two guys are SBC. ;-) Ascol makes many of the same points you do.
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