tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post564952273548747513..comments2024-01-12T09:37:16.515-06:00Comments on paleoevangelical: Amillennialists and Premillennialists: What Do We Agree On?Benhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-7564523547808479662009-07-26T18:11:29.041-05:002009-07-26T18:11:29.041-05:00Ben,
This comment is probably way late since this...Ben,<br /><br />This comment is probably way late since this discussion happened a couple of weeks ago...but I am curious. Would Mark Dever let a member of his church teach a premillenial view from the Pulpit or in a Sunday school class? <br /><br />Nate WilliamsNathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07104766043212660598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-47557609234271789252009-07-20T10:26:18.890-05:002009-07-20T10:26:18.890-05:00Ben, is the point simply to demonstrate that amill...Ben, is the point simply to demonstrate that amills can be christian too? What christian couldn't affirm these things?<br /><br />Christ is coming back, he wins, etc. Of course they believe these things.<br /><br />My honest question to you is: so what? The bible (and NT in specific) reveal a little more than just the bare bones of Christ's return. They affirm the most basic points of Christ's return and then muddy the rest.<br /><br />It is in their departure from truth that causes problems.<br /><br />Justin Martyr:<br />But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare (Dialogue. Chapter 80).<br /><br />For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create'...For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place (Dialogue. Chapter 81).<br /><br />Papias (one who heard John the apostle and friend of Polycarp)<br />... there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth (Fragments of Papias, VI. See also Eusebius, Church History, Book 3, XXXIX, 12).<br /><br />The splinter is not on the premills insisting on correct theology. The splinter is owned by the amills who insist on their own theology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-82760840287309311992009-07-18T15:54:04.285-05:002009-07-18T15:54:04.285-05:00Ben,
Is that "seed" within the texts o...Ben, <br /><br />Is that "seed" within the texts of the Abrahamic covenant of Genesis always (without exception) Christ?C A Watsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-73234383856903348872009-07-16T23:00:59.866-05:002009-07-16T23:00:59.866-05:00All I'm saying is that if you're post-trib...All I'm saying is that if you're post-trib of any stripe, and you believe in a literal, ultimate Antichrist (post A.D. 70, also acknowledging many "antichrists" throughout history-- 1 John 2:18), then it's hard to hold to an any-moment rapture/return. Imminence, yes, but not in a strict any-moment sense.<br /><br />Maybe you're right-- it's only a problem between Historic Premill and Dispensational Premill (if Covenant Amill doesn't believe in a final Antichrist-- I don't know), but in my experience, I've only heard Dispensationalists emphasize "any moment" language.Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771740773363192647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-13888499400367399902009-07-16T09:10:13.235-05:002009-07-16T09:10:13.235-05:00Bruce,
Good point about imminence. I think I coul...Bruce,<br /><br />Good point about imminence. I think I could agree with the Amils I know on the wording I used. But I'm sure you're right that not all could.<br /><br />Help me out here. I'm wondering if that's a difference between Covenant/Historic Premil and (a more Dispensational?) Post-Trib Premil. My memory is fuzzy on how those groups differ. So I'm wondering if Historic Premils see the Tribulation as <i>now</i> so that Christ's return could be "at any moment," whereas Dispensational Post-Trib Premils (if there is such a thing) demand a literal 7-year period including the rise of a personal Antichrist prior to the Rapture. Is that what you're referring to? Is that even a real distinction?<br /><br />On the salvation of a generation of Jews, it might be tough. I believe their will be. Some if not all Amils I know would concede that there may be.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665765739805841971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-24922454745989442152009-07-16T06:50:33.444-05:002009-07-16T06:50:33.444-05:00Some good points. I too benefited from learning mo...Some good points. I too benefited from learning more about the Amillenial position.Peter Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-50254741321083169122009-07-15T22:42:10.160-05:002009-07-15T22:42:10.160-05:00Thanks for this post. It seems more constructive ...Thanks for this post. It seems more constructive than all the noise out there about whether MD thinks something's a sin or not (says the EFCA pastor who would have been happy to drop the pre-mill in the recent statement of faith revision).<br /><br />I've got a comment and a question:<br />1. "Jesus could return at any moment." I'm not sure I've heard non-dispensationalists agree to this wording, at least in the way that dispensationalists mean it. Usually, it's "we agree on imminence," but dispy pre-tribbers mean "any-moment rapture of the church (post-restoration of national Israel in 1948)" and non-dispy post-tribbers mean something like "his return could be in any generation," leaving room for the Antichrist to emerge prior, a la 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. If I were making a list, I'd ditch "any moment" and go with something related to constant expectancy expressed in holy living, but maybe everybody in your crew likes "any moment."<br /><br />2. Is there any agreement that there will be a final generation of Jews who will come to faith in Jesus as their Messiah?Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771740773363192647noreply@blogger.com