tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post4347324839097526102..comments2024-01-12T09:37:16.515-06:00Comments on paleoevangelical: A Really Dull Post on Statements of Faith for the Other Polity NerdsBenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-56225853077646679462010-09-09T13:20:39.147-05:002010-09-09T13:20:39.147-05:00No. I am saying that Acts 15 does not say anythin...No. I am saying that Acts 15 does not say anything about the church's involvement in approving the doctrinal disputes. It is the responsibility of the elders to oversee the well being of the church. If there is a doctrinal dispute, the elders need to approve how it is handled.<br /><br />I am not an elder in my church, so this isn't some kind of power grab I am advocating.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-11853911235701261482010-09-09T07:45:08.644-05:002010-09-09T07:45:08.644-05:00So James, are you advocating for something more or...So James, are you advocating for something more or less than the following"<br /><br />"The Scriptures shall be interpreted according to their normal grammatical-historical meaning, and all issues of interpretation and meaning shall be determined by the pastor."<br /><br />(Taken from the SoF of a Baptist Church [not mine] in my area.)d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-85971092300024265302010-09-07T23:31:14.609-05:002010-09-07T23:31:14.609-05:00Ben, like I said, I can recognize that the presenc...Ben, like I said, I can recognize that the presence of apostles made this a unique event. However, verse 5 gives the complaint. The sequence makes it clear that the apostles and elders THEN met to discuss the problem.<br /><br />It is more likely that the congregation brought the issue up and the apostle and elders settled it.<br /><br />The whole church being glad to send people out with this message obviously implies their affirmation. However, was that affirmation necessary? I don't see it.<br /><br />This is not an argument for elder rule on my part. I think it is a real strain to use this text to teach a churches involvement in settling doctrine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-71192726408443367992010-09-07T22:40:36.394-05:002010-09-07T22:40:36.394-05:00James, the doctrinal discussion begins in vs 5 whe...James, the doctrinal discussion begins in vs 5 when the party of the Pharisees in the congregation argue that the Gentiles needed to keep the Law. The text is not clear from vss 6-21 whether the whole congregation is present or not. ("Assembly" in vs 12 is not ekklesia.) But the fact that it seemed good to the whole congregation (22ff) to send men with the letter explaining the conclusion strongly suggests congregational affirmation of that conclusion. It takes an anti-congregational hermeneutic to deny congregational involvement here.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-20949260544203344172010-09-07T22:16:39.189-05:002010-09-07T22:16:39.189-05:00Ben, it isn't until verse 6 that the discussio...Ben, it isn't until verse 6 that the discussion as to the doctrine actually begins. At that point, there is no mention of the church. So while the church was there to receive them, the church was not there to approve the decision.<br /><br />This has nothing to do with the elder rule issue, just that the church in that passage was informed of the decision.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-73404300165957747432010-09-07T15:10:46.648-05:002010-09-07T15:10:46.648-05:00The whole church was gathered in vs 4 to welcome a...The whole church was gathered in vs 4 to welcome and hear the report from the delegation when it arrived in Jerusalem. In fact, it was in that context that the disagreement arose.<br /><br />I actually take that to support my point, even though the segment of the congregation that raised opposition was in the wrong. The response to them wasn't, "Back off, the apostles and elders will deal with this." Rather, the apostles and elders took the arguments seriously, engaged in much debate, and involved the congregation in affirming their conclusion.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-2989380201145696052010-09-07T15:04:34.968-05:002010-09-07T15:04:34.968-05:00Ben, just like you told Larry though, history migh...Ben, just like you told Larry though, history might help us understand some things, but our position needs to be rooted in scripture and reason.<br /><br />The issue with the apostles is unique. I think we both grant that.<br /><br />Acts 15:6<br />The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.<br /><br />Unless you see otherwise (I only did a quick scan), the church isn't even mentioned until it is time to send out missionaries.<br /><br />Verse 22<br />Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethrenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-15050992122675993902010-09-07T11:51:58.259-05:002010-09-07T11:51:58.259-05:00I think I understand what you guys are doing. Your...I think I understand what you guys are doing. Your approach is not unclear. I cited some familiar examples in the elder rule circles. Rather, I'm arguing that 1) it's not a wise approach in a church that affirms robust, biblical congregationalism, and 2) you either really do have some minimum affirmation or you're not assessing whether people who profess faith and want to join really understand the gospel. Even PCA churches do something along those lines.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-63866578027305098732010-09-07T11:35:36.293-05:002010-09-07T11:35:36.293-05:00As I noted in my post on that other blog you refer...As I noted in my post on that other blog you referenced, the SoF outlines what we believe, in the context of disputed points.<br /><br />So for new believers, or believers who are not sure about what they believe, they can join in good conscience provided they do not dispute our SoF.<br /><br />For believers coming from other backgrounds, our SoF lets them know where we put the fences-the contours of our body, if you will. Don't join if you will find yourself at odds with our assembly.Andy Rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-8201536983195010382010-09-06T23:42:20.144-05:002010-09-06T23:42:20.144-05:00James,
Elder rule has provided an ineffective def...James,<br /><br />Elder rule has provided an ineffective defense against doctrinal deterioration throughout church history. Well, not that confessionalism is untarnished either. But confessionalism and congregationalism in tandem seems like a useful synthesis.<br /><br />In any case, the NT holds <i>congregations</i> responsible for the doctrine and discipline of the church. Maybe I need to walk through the various texts. Summary: in no way is this obligation applied to the elders in a way that's essentially distinct from how it's applied to the congregation.<br /><br />As for the church in Acts, I think I can make a pretty decent case for the involvement of the congregation in the resolution of a foundational doctrinal matter in chapter 15. Clearly, the apostles and elders are leading, but the congregation is present and affirming. And that was with <i>apostles</i> present. It seems unthinkable that the congregation would have less responsibility over doctrine in the absence of the apostles. If anything, more. We could go on.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-84023802279554873372010-09-06T23:30:11.682-05:002010-09-06T23:30:11.682-05:00Larry, if you can believe this, I left my copy of ...Larry, if you can believe this, I left my copy of "Polity" in the office over the long weekend, so I can't check right now. Is that quote from Greg Wills chapter? He'd be the guy who would know the data.<br /><br />My argument is grounded on Scripture and reason, not history, though the history would obviously set some parameters for historic Baptist practice. I'm not sure that either of the quotes you cite really offer anything more than historical data points. Those aren't irrelevant, but neither are they decisive.<br /><br />As for a new member, my ideal scenario would be to teach through the statement with all prospective members and ask them to affirm it at some point in the membership process. If they had questions, I'd try to help them understand and reach a conclusion. If they couldn't affirm the statement, I'd not recommend them for membership and help them find an evangelical church that believes what they believe.<br /><br />I guess I've seen that process happen a few hundred times, and maybe a dozen times there's been a real obstacle in the SoF. So be it. Of course, that sort of thing surely happens much more often in churches that include in their SoFs more detail on issues that are peripheral to the gospel and the life of a church. But you can guess where I'm going with that.<br /><br />In any case, I'd guess you really do have some sort of minimum core of beliefs you'd require members to affirm, even if you haven't thought about what they are. Maybe it's like a called strike in baseball—you'll know it when you see it. Do you ask people anything at all of what they believe?<br /><br />And I don't know your church's polity, but I'm certainly not suggesting that you're necessarily elder rule. I'm simply arguing that the approach to membership that you affirm is best suited to elder rule. I assume you'd consider your church Baptist and congregational, and if you do I'm not saying your position is untenable. I'm saying it's inherently unstable. Like "evangelical feminism" (not at all to suggest you're the exegetical equivalent), something's eventually going to give.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-41253234673553694882010-09-06T18:08:42.018-05:002010-09-06T18:08:42.018-05:00Larry, if you are talking about my reference to el...Larry, if you are talking about my reference to elder-rule, I wasn't talking about your position or your church. If you weren't talking about my post then just ignore this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-65906237041148136222010-09-06T14:58:43.559-05:002010-09-06T14:58:43.559-05:00Ben,
I wonder what you make of this:
"Bapti...Ben,<br /><br />I wonder what you make of this:<br /><br />"Baptist generally tolerated members who judged creeds unlawful as long as they did not agitate persistently against them" (Polity, p. 30). <br /><br />And, "If an individual adopts view of doctrine radically different, ... he ought not to be admitted to the church." (Polity, p. 30).<br /><br />It seems that both of these statements support my position, at least in principle. In the first, those who think no church should have a creed other than the Bible (and therefore seemingly that church membership is not based on adherence to a creed) were tolerated. That's not my position, but the phrase "persistently agitate" seems similar to my position that a person must not work against the doctrinal statement. <br /><br />In the second statement, I am not sure what they mean by "radically different," but it does seem to allow for divergence to some degree from the creed of the church, which is what I think should be allowed. <br /><br />I continue to wonder how you would handle admitting a new believer. (Perhaps you addressed this and I overlooked it.) But if you ask a new believer, "Do you agree with our doctrinal statement?" he or she would probably have to say, "I don't know." Would you decline them membership until they have learned it all?<br /><br />If you say, "Will you agree to learn and not to work against it?" you would be agreeing with me, I think. <br /><br />FWIW, I am somewhat taken aback by the reference to elder rule. I have never been accused of that before. IT's a new one for me :D ... <br /><br />LarryLarryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04886866662463467215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-56521720768090719162010-09-06T10:46:05.062-05:002010-09-06T10:46:05.062-05:00Well, I know you disagree with me on this Ben, but...Well, I know you disagree with me on this Ben, but this is one reason why Elder-rule is the better option.<br /><br />What happened on pentecost? Those who repented, believed, and were baptized were added to the church. They then continued in the apostle's doctrine. They didn't have voting rights over doctrine.<br /><br />I am in favor of the leadership affirming a pretty lengthly doctrinal statement. It is their responsibility to teach the people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-10313966764590759942010-09-06T09:02:43.855-05:002010-09-06T09:02:43.855-05:00Maybe so, but you clicked on the link.
What's...Maybe so, but you clicked on the link.<br /><br />What's worse is that I've been chipping away at that one for like three weeks.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-84274933523856744912010-09-06T08:44:02.969-05:002010-09-06T08:44:02.969-05:00Dude. This is how you spend Labor Day? You are a...Dude. This is how you spend Labor Day? You <i>are</i> a nerd.d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.com