tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post4281540075415668966..comments2024-01-12T09:37:16.515-06:00Comments on paleoevangelical: 800 Pound GorillasBenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-47808264991596038612011-06-04T00:42:08.114-05:002011-06-04T00:42:08.114-05:00I would hear more on this flawed foundation, (fals...I would hear more on this flawed foundation, (falsely so-called?).d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-81786759561902105172011-06-03T11:07:10.780-05:002011-06-03T11:07:10.780-05:00I will affirm that Josh was a fundy of the fundies...I will affirm that Josh was a fundy of the fundies.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-28592456824713712732011-06-03T10:47:41.579-05:002011-06-03T10:47:41.579-05:00Don said:
"So now we are at the usual impas...Don said: <br /><br />"So now we are at the usual impasse. You think there is something fundamentally (systemicly?) wrong with the culture of fundamentalism. I don't. I think there is always need for correction, reproof, redirection, revival, but I don't think the core philosophy is flawed."<br /><br />That is the fundamental (no pun intended) difference. I have relatively recently come to the conclusion that there is no "fundamentalism worth saving" and the the core philosophy IS indeed flawed. <br /><br />I was a fundy of the fundies at various points of my life and when I saw problems, I thought that it was only an issue of "doing fundamentalism better". It turns out that the entire structure is built on a faulty foundation and anything we can do to fix the roof or replace the windows is a waste of time.Joshua Caucutthttp://www.sounchurch.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-85590633794039091542011-06-02T20:05:49.438-05:002011-06-02T20:05:49.438-05:00Could you point to those posts that clearly explai...Could you point to those posts that clearly explain what the point is? I'm not getting it.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jeremiah 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-46144416760875426142011-06-02T14:30:25.172-05:002011-06-02T14:30:25.172-05:00The verse gives the option to be wiser or play the...The verse gives the option to be wiser or play the fool. You choose to lob another insult, one which made no sense.<br /><br />Several people have made clear the intent of the post. Your desire to understand appears... insincere.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-2999725956870963862011-06-02T10:07:09.912-05:002011-06-02T10:07:09.912-05:00pot, meet kettle
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
...pot, meet kettle<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3<br /><br />P. S. Yes, I really would like to understand, because the point is not clear to me.Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-14867269686904420602011-06-02T09:37:27.512-05:002011-06-02T09:37:27.512-05:00Do you really want to be enlightened if at the sam...Do you really want to be enlightened if at the same time you perform yet more driveby insults?<br /><br />Prov 9:8Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-57862772950544949902011-06-01T22:54:34.220-05:002011-06-01T22:54:34.220-05:00Well, Ben, if I am misunderstanding you, I would a...Well, Ben, if I am misunderstanding you, I would appreciate being enlightened. I'm not the only one who doesn't get it, see Greg Long's post. He seems to be hearing the same thing I am.<br /><br />But whatever, if you want to be an oblique, smug, cool kid, go ahead.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-73488288170656020492011-05-31T08:54:49.786-05:002011-05-31T08:54:49.786-05:00"Well then, prove it. I don't see any evi..."Well then, prove it. I don't see any evidence for it."<br /><br />This is rich. Again, no on is claiming that the platonic ideal of fundamentalism causes abuse or cover up. And no one is saying that they would not rejoice to see redirection and revival. <br /><br />However, to say that the shadow of that ideal which we all must live with (if we can borrow a bit from the wise pagan) has provided no evidence of cultural problems . . . well, then all 800 pound gorillas are invisible.<br /><br />KeithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-1276905984946473452011-05-31T04:41:25.620-05:002011-05-31T04:41:25.620-05:00Don, note that the OP directly indicts a particula...Don, note that the OP directly indicts a particular conversation (in which, admittedly, I was a participant) and only implicates the events it discusses.d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-43582885880761885792011-05-30T23:19:06.120-05:002011-05-30T23:19:06.120-05:00"So now we are at the usual impasse. You thin..."So now we are at the usual impasse. You think there is something fundamentally (systemicly?) wrong with the culture of fundamentalism. I don't. I think there is always need for correction, reproof, redirection, revival, but I don't think the core philosophy is flawed."<br /><br /><br />You just proved that this conversation cannot be continued because no one is even close to being on the same page and we are wondering all over the place. I don't think fundamentalism is in dispute or up to debate either. But that right there is the problem: I am talking fundamentalism and you are talking, if I understand correctly, IFB. They are not even close to being mutually exclusive. The fundamentals of the faith are something we should all agree with, but unfortunately the fundamentals get mixed up with the cultural aspects of IFB, and they are not necessarily the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-38049736660025845332011-05-30T21:15:14.325-05:002011-05-30T21:15:14.325-05:00Don wrote (a while ago):
"The premise of the...Don wrote (a while ago):<br /><br />"The premise of the post,as I understand it, is that there is something peculiar to the culture of fundamentalism that produces this sort of problem."<br /><br />1. I never said anything remotely resembling that. Fact is, your interpretation of my premise shifts over the span of this conversation.<br /><br />2. +1 to "what d4v34x said."<br /><br />My point has been clear enough to d4v34x and Keith. I'm not going to take the time to explain it to you further. Frankly, my point isn't to convince you. I'm speaking to the guys who are now where I was 8-15 years ago. Guys who heard good teaching in their Bible classes but never really saw it applied outside the classroom.<br /><br />You are helpful in my pursuit of that objective, of course, because you remind them of what the other option looks like. They get to decide what they think about who's right. And I'm pretty comfortable with that.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-3401204629288040632011-05-30T20:23:28.821-05:002011-05-30T20:23:28.821-05:00Dave, ok, fair enough. But would you say "imp...Dave, ok, fair enough. But would you say "implementation and resultant culture" produce child abuse and cover-up in fundamentalism? Is that what you are saying? Is that what Ben is saying?<br /><br />Well then, prove it. I don't see any evidence for it.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jeremiah 33Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-54123265164180044262011-05-30T16:50:42.840-05:002011-05-30T16:50:42.840-05:00What d4 said.
This is the crux of the reason that...What d4 said.<br /><br />This is the crux of the reason that no progress seems to be made with in these discussions with apologists for old school fundamentalism. They want to insist that their position is correct regardless of what's going on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-8990062959896532222011-05-30T15:40:02.872-05:002011-05-30T15:40:02.872-05:00Don,
1. Core philosophy.
2. Implementation an...Don, <br /><br />1. Core philosophy.<br /><br />2. Implementation and resultant culture. <br /><br />TWO DIFFERENT CATEGORIES.d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-78703854998292966932011-05-30T11:16:04.168-05:002011-05-30T11:16:04.168-05:00Well, Ben, from what you say, I don't think I ...Well, Ben, from what you say, I don't think I missed your point.<br /><br />So now we are at the usual impasse. You think there is something fundamentally (systemicly?) wrong with the culture of fundamentalism. I don't. I think there is always need for correction, reproof, redirection, revival, but I don't think the core philosophy is flawed.<br /><br />With those differences between us, the conversation will likely be unable to progress any further.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-5549903148807399842011-05-30T00:16:15.776-05:002011-05-30T00:16:15.776-05:00"I am for the promotion and advancement of fu..."I am for the promotion and advancement of fundamentalist teaching and culture because it is right and in obedience to the Scripture."<br /><br />Huh? This is more question begging. You are just saying that whatever is right an in obedience to Scripture is fundamentalist teaching and culture. That's fine if you want to say that is the ideal. However, it is not the same thing as talking about the actuality.<br /><br />Look, I don't think that anyone can reasonably say (and I don't think Ben is saying) that fundamentalism set out to produce some of the problems that have developed within it. It is also not reasonable to say that fundamentalism is the only subculture/faith tradition to manifest any particular problem. <br /><br />Nevertheless, when things start happening in a culture, it is wise to analyze what is going on in that culture that is facilitating those things -- whether they also happen in other cultures or not.<br /><br />Finding that extramarital sex is common in Italian culture does not prove that there is nothing in American culture which is contributing to the increase of extramarital sex.<br /><br />Similarly, abuses in SGM or Amish or Roman Catholic cultures do not prove that there is nothing in fundamentalist culture which contributes to abuse.<br /><br />Like Ben said, "As long as precious few either detect the aroma or speak truthfully about what it smells like, the putrefaction will progress."<br /><br />KeithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-88110144640601977872011-05-29T21:44:47.816-05:002011-05-29T21:44:47.816-05:00The premise is that what is represented in the lin...The premise is that what is represented in the link is not the product of a culture that's worth saving. I realize that's basically what I said before, but I don't know how to say it more directly. We can argue over various possible causes (which are not mutually exclusive)—theology, personality, unexamined habits, priorities, depravity, etc.—but that conversation's pointless for those who can't see that something's profoundly wrong with the culture.<br /><br />"Objectively, I can show that it is no worse than culture at large."<br /><br />Well that's damnation by faint praise if I ever saw it. Someone argued a few years ago that fundamentalism is simply the authentic expression of biblical Christianity. I thought that was you, Don. But I could be wrong.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-31310406945759585032011-05-29T18:11:33.031-05:002011-05-29T18:11:33.031-05:00Keith, I'd like to get Ben's answer to ...Keith, I'd like to get Ben's answer to 'the point' of the post. But in answer to your question, I'd say that it is my belief that the culture of fundamentalism actually sees less of the problems cited here. That, of course, is my opinion, and it is harder to back it up with objective observations. Objectively, I can show that it is no worse than culture at large.<br /><br />Further, regardless of the actual effect of this particular question, I am for the promotion and advancement of fundamentalist teaching and culture because it is right and in obedience to the Scripture.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-77223132748175536742011-05-29T07:19:13.377-05:002011-05-29T07:19:13.377-05:00Don,
As Ben has already indicated, you missed the...Don,<br /><br />As Ben has already indicated, you missed the premise, but I'll let him explain his premise more fully if he likes.<br /><br />However, even if you did properly ascertain the premise, you have a problem with your "separate over ministry philosophy" type of fundamentalism.<br /><br />You say: "There is nothing peculiar to the culture of any of these groups that produce these problems. There is something peculiar to humanity that does, of course."<br /><br />If that's the case, there is no reason for all of the obsessing over "standards" (dress, music, ad infinitum) in your party's position. Even the most die hard BJU loyalist I know doesn't argue that Scripture actually requires men to wear neck ties, or limits the wearing of blue jeans, or forbids electric guitars and syncopation, or outlaws setting foot in a movie theatre but requires attendance at Shakespeare and the Opera, or . . . well you get the point.<br /><br />All the fuss over these CULTURAL things is supposedly a result of wisdom and training in discipline and the avoidance of sliding into worldliness.<br /><br />Well, if cultures don't make any difference. If no matter what we do we'll all have the same result because "sin is common to man." Well, then all of these "standards" are a waste of time.<br /><br />Of course, statutory rape and mishandling of power are not unique to the IFB subculture. No sane person would make such a claim. However, is there anything in all of the restrictions of this subculture that produce anything better than that which is common to society at large? If not, then what is the point?<br /><br />KeithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-84124662373477416872011-05-29T07:04:16.701-05:002011-05-29T07:04:16.701-05:00The "anonymous" right after James Kime -...The "anonymous" right after James Kime -- the one at 5/28/2011 12:04 AM -- was me.<br /><br />I was in a hurry and forgot to sign.<br /><br />KeithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-12259341644451318542011-05-28T20:09:37.130-05:002011-05-28T20:09:37.130-05:00So what is the premise?So what is the premise?greglonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05514850772020363684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-55357164886505617602011-05-28T09:25:55.368-05:002011-05-28T09:25:55.368-05:00That's not the premise Don.That's not the premise Don.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07113808932788409800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-52082007596997679862011-05-28T08:53:50.264-05:002011-05-28T08:53:50.264-05:00The premise of the post,as I understand it, is tha...The premise of the post,as I understand it, is that there is something peculiar to the culture of fundamentalism that produces this sort of problem. That's the '800 pound gorilla'. Others allege the same thing of SGM. Others allege the same thing of the NYPD, see a recent case in the pages of the NY Times.<br /><br />Statistically, I think it can be shown that the incidences of these kinds of problems occur no more frequently in any of these groups than in society at large. That is not an excuse, it defeats the premise. There is nothing peculiar to the culture of any of these groups that produce these problems.<br /><br />There is something peculiar to humanity that does, of course.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7080491.post-57822903865246640632011-05-28T00:43:22.832-05:002011-05-28T00:43:22.832-05:00Before jumping all over you, maybe I should read a...Before jumping all over you, maybe I should read a little less quickly. On closer look, maybe you agree with me that these weird sub-sects of people who go off on these bizarre tangents, such as "courtship," and make it the focus of their lives, are ripe for problems. Please excuse my poor reading skills if I misunderstood your post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com